Comments on: Right to Protest — Really?

By: oedipus_lex

oedipus_lex — Mon, 28 Sep 2009 09:23:07 +0000

Stu: Actually I have a lot of sympathy for the policemen who were at the sharp end of that bungled op. I question whether they needed to pump quite so many rounds into him but that was there call and I imagine after they had shot him once in the head everything after that was academic. However, having been a part of seemingly more complicated surveillance ops I still cannot believe that they allowed it to get so far. We could probably argue all day about this though.

I agree with the politicisation of the police and this is of concern not just ethically but constitutionally too. However, just because the States, Canada and France are worse does not mean that an arbitrary invocation of an all encompassing law is right.

By: Stu Peters

Stu Peters — Fri, 25 Sep 2009 20:15:42 +0000

I have little sympathy with Menezes; he refused to stop, presumably because he was an illegal immigrant; a fact unknown to the officers “on the ground”. His flight served only to confirm the information that they had received.

The errors in the information have been well documented and like the demise of poor Mr. Tomlinson, none of this reflects well upon the Met who seem to be following their political masters in both stupidity and lack of accountability.

I left the Police Service in the early 80’s when it started to become politicised and have seen the Police at work in the USA and in Canada where I now live. By transatlantic standards I do feel that you have can have little complaint over the behaviour of the Met officers outside the Hilton.

By: oedipus_lex

oedipus_lex — Fri, 25 Sep 2009 08:51:01 +0000

And as a retired soldier with more than my fair share of service in Northern Ireland I would say that maybe the Met need some lessons from the RUC/PSNI. I have been in riots where we were petrol bombed, pipe bombed and opened up on with automatic weapons yet we managed not to kill anyone. While the murder of Yvonne Fletcher was truly awful, at least she had an idea of the occupational risks of her job; Ian Tomlinson and Jean Charles de Menezes didn’t.

I don’t think the French gendarmerie have ever been accused of being civilised. The current closure of the ‘Jungle’ is proof of this. They are virtually a paramilitary organisation who live in barracks and have a flaming grenade as their cap-badge!

By: Stu Peters

Stu Peters — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 23:51:10 +0000

As a retired Met and Provincial Force Copper all I can say is, that after the disgrace of the late WPC Yvonne Fletcher and the realese of the Pan Am bomber, you are lucky to have a Police Force at all. Oh and try it on in France or any other “civilised” country.

By: oedipus_lex

oedipus_lex — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 08:21:22 +0000

Simply Wondered: You’re right, we’ve heard little from Disco Dave and his British Bill of Rights. This, quite frankly, scares the bejesus out of me. If he’s right does this mean that rights are not universal? they are not human but nation specific. If this is the case then we end up with at best an underclass of people who are ‘sans papiers’ and at worst Agamben’s Homo Sacer — someone who may be killed by anyone but not sacrificed.

I agree with your sentiments in that the law t’was ever thus. But in a historical context mostof us wouldn’t have the right to vote let alone protest. The point is that as a society we are supposed to be evolving, we should have put the dark days of repression behind us. This government did some great things in their first few years, things they were rightly proud of. Sadly they are reverting, post 9/11, to the theory that the law is nought but orders backd by threats (Austin I think).

By: simply wondered

simply wondered — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:03:02 +0000

if you are only concerned with this government’s record, yes. if you want any kind of historical perspective, no.
and it’s not as if the government has managed all of its anti-terror efforts. control orders for instance have been shown the door, though they may take a while getting their coats. so even this hasn’t been one way traffic. what would have been really amusing would have been watching dave try to repeal the hra. i imagine someone has had a quiet word as we hear less about this these days. i suppose every silver lining has a cloud.

By: Oh what a lovely day…. « Charon QC

Oh what a lovely day…. « Charon QC — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:04:30 +0000

[…] I read Oedipus_Lex’s amusing post about police stupidity and the erosion of civil rights. Lex gives us a first hand report of his experience at the hands of the guys whose eyes are just that […]

By: Charon QC

Charon QC — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 17:41:47 +0000

Sounds like PC Dimbleby from Spitting Image was in charge. I despair about police sometimes — they just don’t seem to get that they are not paid by taxpayers to behave like latter day Nazis.

I have meet some brilliant coppers.… sensible, thoughtful — who are good natured in the face of drunken nonsense, difficult people. Unfortunately, I too, have come across the shaven headed guys whose eyes are just a little bit too close together.

I need not ask if you got the copper’s shoulder board number… it was probably taped over.

The sad thing is… this type of police response merely serves to imprint irritation with the police in normal sensible people who wish to express their views and doesn’t work… it certainly counters all the PR work the Police do to show they are ‘serving the community’ or whatever horse merde is the strapline under Police on the side of their cars

Ah well.… talking of kettling… I have some prawns that are getting uppity. They will be kettled in chilli and garlic and be eaten… so there will be no prawns outside Downing Street tonight protesting.… I do my best to serve the community, after all

By: oedipus_lex

oedipus_lex — Mon, 21 Sep 2009 19:59:42 +0000

I’m not doubting that but with the implementation of the European Convention on Human Rights into English domestic law in the Human Rights Act, 1998 our rights were framed. 3 years later the same government then began a process of implementing ‘anti-terror’ legislation which has not stopped and has seen the over qualification of the HRA rights. To understand the process we can split the periods into pre-9/11 and post 9/11.

By: simply wondered

simply wondered — Mon, 21 Sep 2009 14:54:08 +0000

only one quibble — state of affairs we are now in is the same as it ever was from peterloo, to cnd marches, to the orgreave riot, to stop the city. all governments like less protesting. all police officers like more power than the law gives them. it’s the kind of people they are.